"Purifier" du noir !!!!!

as i said on the post "les familles de couleurs" my problem is on my black.

the cock hace red in the hackles and i want to get rid of this.

but i am not sure on the formula to do it.

the different colours i have to work with are :

black > cock with red hackles > hen totaly black

white > i tested the white, it is recessive and silver

splash > only 1 cock with red in the hackles

cuckoo > I suppose they are carrying s+ because they tend to get copper on the shoulder and hackles with age

danny, what matting would you do to get rid of this red in the black?

i already crossed a white male with a cuckoo hen and kept a black female with a few silver hackles.

by crossing this hen with a white cock, i obtained a cockerel that have more silver hackles and a begining of silvery shoulder.

so i suppose it is not the right way to do it.

please, master, can you help me?

To start with your ending, please NOT call me master. I am a simple breeder as the most of you. I had the luck to fall on some good colour genetic texts and I could discus a lot with my Italian friend who is byologiste and specialized in genetics in general. Together we builded these website pages about colour gentics in particular with as intention to let everyone interested take profit of our work (that took months). We Not have the pretention to say we know everything, we know only a little. But this little we made as simple as possible and that was not so easy for me, because I never studied on a higher level.

Second, your question about that red. This is why our projectis called "The Silverfleet", because I am not a fan of "s+" or "Mh" or "Ar+". This 3 "kind of reds" causes all the problems in my favorite: the "S". So take a look here : http://zijdehoenders.googlepages.com/geneticdetails2 but better you start here : http://zijdehoenders.googlepages.com/thesilverfleet and go step by step. Give yourself some time to take this in mind and in the end you will saving yourself of a lot of troubles.

But short my opinion about that problem you have. Normaly most colour variations are based on e+ = the wildtype (this have the salmon breast in the hens and this COULD be the Ar+ (autosomale red) itself. Also most colours are based on gold (s+). Some of them are reinforced with the Mh (Mahagony) what results in dark red/gold/brown.

So it is not realy the black that causes your problem but the "red" in the black or blue or splash or cucula or lavender (all based on the "E".
s+ (gold) is sex-linked. This is a help, because the hens are always pure gold s+/- or Silver S/- . Hens can NEVER give there gold s+ to there daughter, only to there sons!
This means NOT breed with (whatever colour) cock where you are not sure he is S/S = pure Silver. Try to keep away from cocks S/s+. If possible also not with a cock or hen that is e+ (because of the salmon), better with the cocks and hens who are eb.

Conclusion: when you want to get rid of that red NOT breed with cocks where you can see it.

don't be upset. Master was just a kind of humour touch.

i'll study that and tell you what i am planning to do

thank you

Hi danny.

I did read with a great interest the pages about E locus.

as you say, i tihink my black could be pure E but with some phoemelanine in hackles.

bacause I can't see the red s+ in the female hackles, and very lately in the male, i think i will try to work with my blacksilver hen. (the one with a few silver hackle) to make a Black carring silver instead of gold.

this way, it should be easier to select the right parents with as less "coloured" hackles as possible. and with time and luck, i should get rid of this phoemelanine.

wath do you think of my Theory? do you think that could work or is the there a simpler or faster way to do it ?

one says to have a green shine on the blck, one is suppose to have a cockerel with some red in the hacles. wath do you think about this ? is it true or is it a rumour ?
in fact my question is, if i get rid of this phoemelanine, wil i loose the green glow ?

yhank you for your help

Oké Neptune, this is already onr thing you readed about the E-locus. Keep on reading also the rest!

Since you say you only see that red on the black cocks and not on the black hens we have here a difficult problem.
I say a difficult problem because here is something where not everybody agree on!!!

There is only ONE kind of black we have to consider and that is E/E and is variations (E/e+ - E/ER - E/eWh and E/eb) you readed about that in the page about the E-locus.

The red is different. There is more than ONE kind of red.
-Everybody agree on the gold s+/s+ for cocks and s+/- for hens, we not consider here the cocks with S/s+.
-But now that other red!!!! Is that Mahogany (Mh) or Autosomale red (Ar+) ?? (Watch that "+" in Ar+ meaning it is an original (not mutated) allele) Or can they be accepted both ??

-For some the Mh is a reinforcer of red/gold/brown that only can do is thing (reinforce) when the gold allel s+ is present.
-For some other the Ar+ is the salmon red on the breast of e+ hens and on the wingbow of the e+ cocks is the other kind of red!!! And also this Ar+ can be reinforced by Mh.

That it excist and that it give onwanted leftovers of "red" in Silver and black birds is a much encountered difficulty!!
Not much is investigated and written about the action of autosomal red (Ar+).
Ar+ acts the same on both sexes. Autosomal red is independent from sex linked gold (s+) nor sex linked silver (S).
It's believed gold bases birds (s+) have by origin Ar+, therefore the + is noted, + means present in RJF.
If Ar+ is absent (theoretically) the gold would be more pale. But this can't be verified by phenotype.
Read all about this on: http://zijdehoenders.googlepages.com/geneticdetails2

The ONLY way to COVER this onwanted red in black birds is to make sure the black reinforcer Ml is present. Than you become black as black must be!!

If you accept the theory about the Ar+ and e+ are connected than know or birds, even the Silkies who are originaly NOT e+ but eb (the aziatic/brown), have been crossed with e+ birds in the past to bring in wanted genes that where originaly not in them. (for Silkies crosses with Cochins, Brahma, Faverolles .....)

An other way to get rid of that "red" is as in this post: http://www.plumage.eu/les-croisements-de-couleurs-f44/comment-realiser-la-negre-soie-noire-integrale-t1566.htm
"Si tu veux absolument travailler avec ce que tu as, la première chose à faire est de croiser tes sujets "noir à camail" entre eux, si il n'y a aucun noir intégral dans la descendance inutile de poursuivre l'expérience et cherche du noir pur ailleurs." as Avicol'fan said.

i already crossed my black together and it is always the same problem. hens seems to be pure when coq have red or redish glow in the hackles, more or less depending fo the bird but there is always some red. the darkest i had, had only a few red feathers around the crest. but there was some red.

about Ml, i thought this gene was also responsible for black eyes and black leggs. and my birds have black legs and eyes.

so I am a bit lost at the moment.

THE big trouble maker in my opinion is the Ar+ from the e+ (salmon red) yes or no reinforced of Mh.

When your (black) birds have it you can never get rid of it (even ONE single red feather indicates it is there).
On red birds it is NO problem it is even good. (it intensive the red).

The Ml I know only as intensifier of the black pigment colour.

For the eyes of Silkies : The eye pigment cells of Silkies have a double layer who excist out of black pigment that overtake the orange eye colour. This is also called a "negro eye". The properties of black and orange pigment depend only on the same factor. Problely is the gene of the black eye-pigment identical with the gene of the skin-pigment. When a black-skined Silkie is crossed with a non black-skined animal the skin colour of the descendants is less dark coloured.

For the legs colour I must look it up!!

Neptune aussi important est que votre noirs sont E/E.

Le noir peut être obtenu avec des différentes combinations alleles : E/E - E/ER - E/eWh - E/e+ - E/eb - E/ey. Seulement la combination E/E permet la réalisation d'un noire pur sans plumes d'autre couleur. Les autres combinations sont dénoncées d'un plumages clair ou des traces de rouge à chargement du camail

et comment fait-on pour le savoir ?

Le reflet vert loft2box, toutes les volailles noires avec un reflet vert sont E/E !!!

Les autres n'ont pas ce reflet vert !!


Danny, do you have an genetic explication about "reflet vert" ???

ah par les croiser ensemble come Avicol'fan a déjà expliquer: "Si tu veux absolument travailler avec ce que tu as, la première chose à faire est de croiser tes sujets "noir à camail" entre eux, si il n'y a aucun noir intégral dans la descendance inutile de poursuivre l'expérience et cherche du noir pur ailleurs."

mais puisque mes poules sont complêtement noires, c'est qu'il y en a dans leur ascendance !

From the volumes of Dr. Corti SummaGallicana: E: this allele the more dominant of the series. The eumelanine replaces the pheomelanine in all the areas of the plumage. Arranged with Ml it allows the black to catch up an extreme intensity. The rooster and the hen are completely black. The gene s+ has infuence on the green glow of the black plumage.

alors ? c'est bon ou non ?

Il y a beaucoup autres détails concernés, mais qui c'est une entre autres

Danny57 a écrit:

The gene s+ has infuence on the green glow of the black plumage.

so if i get rid of s+, i loose the green shine. is it what you are meaning ??

From le summagallicana de Dr Corti:

La contemporanea presenza dei geni dell’argento e dell’oro in soggetti neri o bianchi può essere stabilita solo attraverso incroci. L’argento è un gene molto utile se incorporato in una colorazione bianca, essendo in grado di ridurre le chiazzette di pigmento che talora trapelano - meglio sarebbe trapiumano - parzialmente, anche se la sintesi feomelanica è in teoria bloccata. Può inoltre liberare le spalle dai riflessi ottone in maschi bianchi. Anche la presenza dell’oro può risultare utile, in quanto contribuisce notevolmente a migliorare i riflessi verdi del piumaggio nero.

from the translator:
La contemporaine présence des génies de l'argent et de l'or en sujets noirs ou blancs peut être établie seulement à travers des croisements. L'argent est un gène beaucoup d'utile s'incorporé dans une coloration blanche, en étant en mesure de réduire des petites taches de pigment que talora trapelano - mieux il serait trapiumano - partiellement, même si la synthèse feomelanica est en théorie bloquée. Il peut en outre libérer les épaules des reflets laiton en mâles blancs. Même la présence de l'or peut résulter utile, puisqu'il contribue considérablement à améliorer les reflets verts du piumaggio noir.

comprend plus moi ???????

It seems me also contradictory, I am asking the opinion of a biologiste and passionated breeder on this subject now.

Danny57 a écrit:

It seems me also contradictory, I am asking the opinion of a biologiste and passionated breeder on this subject now.

It's a good idea!! you can say him to go here !!

La génétique fait appel à diverses sciences (chimie, biologie entre autre) pour évoluer !!

I asked the same to Sigrid and she responded : green glow is
caused by the Ml (Melanotique), violet glow is caused by the autosomal red
and/or gold visible where it is present if it not come to the surface itself.


So the gold s+ have influence on the amelioration of the violet glow not on the green glow, if the Silver have something to see in it she not said.

BLACK IS BLACK? YES BUT!!! TAKE THE FOLLOWING IN CONDISERATION.


Black (E):

The black can be obtained with various combinations alleles:
E/E - E/ER - E/eWh - E/e - E/eb - E/ey.
These combinations can give the black plumage a lighter tint or leave traces of red in the neck or wingbows.

Only the combination E/E allows the realisation of pure black without feathers of an another colour.

The presence of the gene Ml (Melanotic) is very useful, as it remarkebly contributes to improve the glares green of the black plumages and is the only gene that can stop the outbreak of "red" on black animals.



Autosomale red (Ar ):


The expression of this gene(Ar ) is independent from the sex-linked gold (s ).

All homozygote silver males (S/S) can show the autosomale red (Ar ) on the back, wingbows and in small quantities elsewhere. The presence of this gene (Ar ) has been assumed present and necessarry for the better pyle colororation in which it is rich and deep red, as blood. This particularly intense red, insensitive for the gene of silver (S), is also assumed as been intensified of an other red gene, Mahagony (Mh).

Bantam what is happening with my layout and lettertype!!!???

Oké I saw the edit button ;-)

Danny57 a écrit:

Bantam what is happening with my layout and lettertype!!!???

Y Edit about layout for you but now you can Edit yourself!!!

Danny57 a écrit:

Only the combination E/E allows the realisation of pure black without feathers of an another colour.

i understood it an other way on your website, because you say

Citation :

-E (Extended Black) –black/cream day-old chicks, adults predominantly black, but may have some pheomelanin (silver or gold) areas in hackles.

and if my orps were not E/E, first the female should not be black, second, by crossing them together i should have, at one time, pure male.





so is it possible there is something sex linked somewhere that could influence the black, or something that could be combinated for the female that could be absent on the male

Yes, only the combination of the alleles E/E (on the E-locus can also be E/ER, E/e+, E/eb, E/eWh) gives the possiblitie of pure black.

But, as all chickens are always based on the sex-linked S-locus or s+ (gold) or S (silver) this red or white (read gold and silver) can break trough this black when this black lack the gene Ml (Melanotic) wich is the gene that reinforce the black against ALL kinds of influences of other colour genes (s+ (gold) or Ar+ Autosomal red (for some the e+ red as on the hens salmon breasts) yes or no reinforced with the Mh (Mahagony), or the S (silver)).

Keep always in mind these 3 phrases together:

The coloration of the chicken feathers is determinate by only two pigments.
This 2 pigments are responsible of all the gamma of colorations of the chickens.
The colour of our chickens is NOT made of ONE gene but of SEVERAL genes.

+ They can be DILUTED or REINFORCED.

These genes determine or inhibit the synthesis of pigments responsible for the colour of our chickens.


Note:
Ml (Malanotic) is a reinforcer of the black pigments;
Mh (Mahagony) is a reinforcer of the red pigments.

I respond here now on the question:
"so is it possible there is something sex linked somewhere that could influence the black, or something that could be combinated for the female that could be absent on the male"

Yes there is a difference between the males and the females that is sex-linked in colouration but also in the expression of the intensitie of the colours and also in the division of the colours.

1. sex-linked colours, the cock have two alleles of that (ex. S/S) the hens have only one allele of that (ex. S/-);
2. males (in birds) are almost always intenser coloured under influence of for example different hormones;
3. males have an other colour dividing patron than females (what seems not be so in unicolours but look the other colours) http://zijdehoenders.googlepages.com/geneticdetails3

Citation :

Yes, only the combination of the alleles E/E (on the E-locus can also be E/ER, E/e+, E/eb, E/eWh) gives the possiblitie of pure black.

But, as all chickens are always based on the sex-linked S-locus or s+ (gold) or S (silver) this red or white (read gold and silver) can break trough this black when this black lack the gene Ml (Melanotic) wich is the gene that reinforce the black against ALL kinds of influences of other colour genes (s+ (gold) or Ar+ Autosomal red (for some the e+ red as on the hens salmon breasts) yes or no reinforced with the Mh (Mahagony), or the S (silver)).

Keep always in mind these 3 phrases together:

The coloration of the chicken feathers is determinate by only two pigments.
This 2 pigments are responsible of all the gamma of colorations of the chickens.
The colour of our chickens is NOT made of ONE gene but of SEVERAL genes.

+ They can be DILUTED or REINFORCED.

These genes determine or inhibit the synthesis of pigments responsible for the colour

Oui, seulement la combinaison des allèles E/E (sur le locus E peut aussi être E/ER, E/e, E/eb, E/eWh) qui donne ainsi la possibilité de noir pure.

Mais, comme tous les sujets ont à la base le locus S lié au sexe ou s+ (doré) ou S+ (argenté), ce rouge ou blanc ( dit argent dorée) peut casser par ce noir, si ce noir manque, le gène MI (Melanotic) qui se trouvre être le gène renforçant le noir contre TOUTES influences liées aux autres gènes de couleur (s + (doré) ou Ar + rouge autosomique rouge ( le e+rouge présent sur la poitrine saumonée de certaines poules) oui ou non renforcé par le Mh (Acajou), ou le S (argent)).

Gardez toujours en tête ces 3 expressions ensemble :

La coloration des plumes du sujet est déterminée par deux pigments seulement.
Ces 2 pigments sont responsables de toute la gamme de couleur.
La couleur de nos poulets n'est pas faite d'UN gène, mais de PLUSIEURS gènes.

Ils peuvent être DILUÉS ou RENFORCÉS.

Ces gènes déterminent ou inhibent la synthèse de pigments responsables de la couleur.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Citation :

I respond here now on the question:
'so is it possible there is something sex linked somewhere that could influence the black, or something that could be combinated for the female that could be absent on the male'

Yes there is a difference between the males and the females that is sex-linked in colouration but also in the expression of the intensitie of the colours and also in the division of the colours.

1. sex-linked colours, the cock have two alleles of that (ex. S/S) the hens have only one allele of that (ex. S/-);
2. males (in birds) are almost always intenser coloured under influence of for example different hormones;
3. males have an other colour dividing patron than females (what seems not be so in unicolours but look the other colours) http://zijdehoenders.googlepages.com/geneticdetails3

Je réponds à présent à la question :

"Est-il possible que le noir soit influencé par le sexe du sujet, ou quelque chose qui serait combiné à partir de la femelle et qui serait absent chez le mâle ?"

Oui, il y a une différence entre mâles et femelles, cette différence liée au sexe a non seulement une influence sur la couleur, mais aussi sur l'expression de l'intensité de cette dernière, donc sur la division des couleurs.

1. les couleurs déterminées par le sexe, le coq a deux allèles (excepté. S/S) tandis que les poules n'en ont qu'un (excepté. S/-);
2. les mâles (chez les oiseaux) ont presque toujours des couleurs intenses sous l'influence des différentes hormones, par exemple;
3. les mâles ont une autre couleur découpant le dessin alors que les femelles (pour celles qui ne semblent pas être de couleur unie, mais ayant différentes couleurs)
http: // zijdehoenders.googlepages.com/geneticdetails3

Merci Kenjiro_57 pour la traduction.
Mais elle n'est pas complètement exacte! Juste des petites erreurs mais ça transforme ce que je veux dire exactement.
Il faut qu'on en discute. Mais comment? Avez vous une solution pour cela?

Au peut ëtre Bantam si je pouvais editer dans le poste de Kenjiro_57, se sont uniquement des petites choses qui doivent ëtre transformées mais sa change beaucoup au suject.

Danny57 a écrit:

Yes, only the combination of the alleles E/E (on the E-locus can also be E/ER, E/e+, E/eb, E/eWh) gives the possiblitie of pure black.

But, as all chickens are always based on the sex-linked S-locus or s+ (gold) or S (silver) this red or white (read gold and silver) can break trough this black when this black lack the gene Ml (Melanotic) wich is the gene that reinforce the black against ALL kinds of influences of other colour genes (s+ (gold) or Ar+ Autosomal red (for some the e+ red as on the hens salmon breasts) yes or no reinforced with the Mh (Mahagony), or the S (silver)).

Keep always in mind these 3 phrases together:

The coloration of the chicken feathers is determinate by only two pigments.
This 2 pigments are responsible of all the gamma of colorations of the chickens.
The colour of our chickens is NOT made of ONE gene but of SEVERAL genes.

+ They can be DILUTED or REINFORCED.

These genes determine or inhibit the synthesis of pigments responsible for the colour of our chickens.


Note:
Ml (Malanotic) is a reinforcer of the black pigments;
Mh (Mahagony) is a reinforcer of the red pigments.

Voici ma traduction (tu me dira ce que tu en penses Danny!!>>>


Seul l'allèle pour E/E noir étendue homozygote dominant offre la possibilité d'obtenir du noir pur( cette allèle peut aussi etre E/Er, E/eb, E/ewh, E/e+).

Mais les volailles sont toujours aussi S (argenté) gène dominant et lié au sexe ou s+ (doré), ce rouge ou blanc peut aussi avoir une action sur le noir Ml (mélanine) qui lui meme renforce avec l'influence d'autres gènes comme s+ (doré) ou Ar+ (le rouge autosomal qui se retrouve dans la poitrine des volailles saumonnées) à cela s'ajoute ou pas l'action amplificatrice de Mh ou de S (silver= argenté)

Ce qu'il faut toujours garder à l'esprit ce sont ces 3 points :

1 La coloration du plumage des volailles est toujours déterminée par 2 pigments.
2 Ces 2 pigments sont responsables de l'ensemble des gammas de la coloration du plumage
3 La coloration du plumage est un ensemble de gènes et non un seul gène qui agirait séparément.

Ils peuvent (ces différents gènes) soit diluer ou soit renforcer.
Ils déterminent ou inhibent la synthèse globale de la coloration du plumage des volailles.

à noter>

Ml (mélanine) est un amplificateur du pigment noir
Mh (acajou) est un amplificateur du pigment rouge.

Qui, ici les petites erreur ne sont pas présent qui transforme ou donne une autre sense à ce que je voudrais expliqué avec mais phrases.
Pour traduiser ses spécifique phrases il faut être présent dans les termes génétiques pour donner les juste expressions ainsi que dans les deux langues.
Pour cela il est si difficile de faire cecui.

Oui Danny,


Je veut bien utiliser les termes et le langage génétique mais il faut aussi que tout le monde comprennent !!!

et c'est pas si simple que cela !!!

Même si ont veut expliquer quelque chose en français il faut connaitre la langue (c'est pourquoi il est ci difficile pour moi) Mais si on aprennes tous la langue universelle du génétique ont pouvait expliqués toutes et avec tout le monde.